Wi-Fi & connectivity

[atc98092]

---

@JKasten wrote:

atc98092:

Re the Roku remotes:

I think that I shaded the Rokus enough to block the IR (hard to tell).  If I succeeded, then apparently even the Express's basic remote is using RF - cause the Rokus still respond to it.

As for the remotes "linked" to the Rokus, I didn't find any listed - on either Roku.  (Perhaps I overlooked some settings screen, but it wasn't obvious).  I did see the IR/CEC selection screen on each Roku; IR was selected on both Rokus.  (Apparently, there is no option for RF (wireless)).  I also didn't see any indication of a paired remote in either case.  (Not sure there is any such indication anyway). 

Re the Router Security settings:

If I was using the Wi-Fi mode, I'd likely use separate SSIDs for each network (frequency) - although I might be lazy and use the same PIN for each.  Interestingly, something is producing a hidden Wi-Fi network; if it comes from the Router then I'd guess it is for the "other" frequency - apparently when the Router uses the same SSID for both frequencies, it auto-selects the optimum frequency for the device, so probably both networks are present but only one is labeled.  <Just speculation>.

Unfortunately I can't recall the wording of the option for linking IP and MAC, but it was something about reducing the ability to spoof (the IP, I think).  Not something that I'm familiar with.

About the subnet masks, I know only enough to be "dangerous" (like with most aspects of networking).  But I was wondering if there would be any benefit in reducing the range of subnet addresses to only the six that I will be using at this point - that is, mask of 255.255.255.248.  (Thought it might have some benefit for either performance or security).  If I recall correctly, the Router's current settings were 255.255.0.0 - and I doubt I'd ever need 65K+ subnet addresses. 😉

Anyway, mainly interested in making sure that I do everything reasonable to impede hackers.

---

When you go into Settings/Remotes & Devices, it should show any RF remote linked to that player. It won't show an IR remote, because those are not "linked" to a device. 

The IR/CEC selection is solely for choosing how you would use the remote to control another device, such as a TV or AVR. CEC can control either, while under IR they can only control a TV that it has known codes for. That selection does nothing for using your remote on the Roku itself. 

The hidden network you're seeing with a WiFi scanner is likely the Roku remote. They do appear that way when I scan my local area. They normally will be on the same channel as your WiFi network, since the radio can only select a single channel at the time. But if you're using an Ethernet connection, I don't exactly know how it selects a channel to use.

Since I have multiple access points in my home, I don't leave any of my radios on Auto-select for the channel (frequency) they use. I prefer to choose them myself based on what I scan in the area. Even though the homes around me are not tightly packed together, I can still see well over two dozen nearby APs. 

I would change your subnet mask to 255.255.255.0. It's nonsense to use your setting in a home environment. For a large medical center that I set up and managed their network, I used 255.255.254.0, simply because I wanted some headroom for all the connected devices used in the building. That doubled the number of available IP addresses, and I still used less than half of them. I don't think reducing your network addresses would be much of an impediment to a hacker. They know ways around things like that. But in reality your home network simply isn't a high value target, so using a high level of encryption on your WiFi (at least WPA-2 Personal) with a strong passcode will discourage any casual neighbor that wants to use your Internet connection. 

[JKasten]

atc98092:

With all the flooding going on around the area today, I haven't had much time to fuss with the Rokus, but perhaps a few things can be narrowed down meantime.

Just to clarify how things are supposed to work with the Roku remotes, do I have correct understanding of the following:

- The basic remote (Express) is IR-only.

- The audio remote (Express 4K+) is RF (but is it also IR)?

- There should be a list of (RF) linked remotes in each Roku.  (Does "linked" equate to "paired"?)

-- I assume the Express will have no such list (because no remote has been paired with it).

-- I also assume that there should be no more than one remote listed in the Express 4K+'s list (because I have only one audio remote (that uses RF).

- If the basic remote included with the Express is IR-only, and not "paired", then it would not appear in either Roku's list (even though it controls both of them).

- If the audio remote (included with the Express 4K+) is not in the list, then:

-- it hasn't been paired (properly).

-- is it using IR to control both Rokus - or does it control by RF even though it's not listed, perhaps because it hasn't been paired (properly)?

- Apparently either remote can control the Rokus even when it has not been paired (properly).

Re Router stuff:

The hidden network is present even when the Rokus are not operating.  It also is present when the Router is turned off.  To my knowledge I have nothing here that would offer a Wi-Fi network although there are some devices using RF comm links (weather stations, outdoor thermometers, etc.).  There is also a 4Glte module on a generator.   Assuming those things don't produce Wi-Fi networks, I guess the hidden network must be coming from outside - although there aren't any neighbors closer than about 300'.  So...???

If tailoring the default subnet masks has no benefit for the home network, then may as well leave them alone.

[atc98092]

---

@JKasten wrote:

do I have correct understanding of the following:

- The basic remote (Express) is IR-only.

- The audio remote (Express 4K+) is RF (but is it also IR)?

- There should be a list of (RF) linked remotes in each Roku.  (Does "linked" equate to "paired"?)

-- I assume the Express will have no such list (because no remote has been paired with it).

-- I also assume that there should be no more than one remote listed in the Express 4K+'s list (because I have only one audio remote (that uses RF).

- If the basic remote included with the Express is IR-only, and not "paired", then it would not appear in either Roku's list (even though it controls both of them).

- If the audio remote (included with the Express 4K+) is not in the list, then:

-- it hasn't been paired (properly).

-- is it using IR to control both Rokus - or does it control by RF even though it's not listed, perhaps because it hasn't been paired (properly)?

- Apparently either remote can control the Rokus even when it has not been paired (properly).

Re Router stuff:

The hidden network is present even when the Rokus are not operating.  It also is present when the Router is turned off.  To my knowledge I have nothing here that would offer a Wi-Fi network although there are some devices using RF comm links (weather stations, outdoor thermometers, etc.).  There is also a 4Glte module on a generator.   Assuming those things don't produce Wi-Fi networks, I guess the hidden network must be coming from outside - although there aren't any neighbors closer than about 300'.  So...???

If tailoring the default subnet masks has no benefit for the home network, then may as well leave them alone.

---

• Every version of Roku Express (no + or 4K added to the name) only comes with the basic IR remote.
• There are Express 4K and Express 4K+ models. Only the + version comes with the Voice remote.
• The RF remotes are also capable of IR control, but my understanding is when it is paired with a Roku player the IR codes are disabled, and IR will only control a TV power/volume.
• Yes, linked and paired mean the same thing. Yes, any RF remote paired with a player should be shown in the Settings/Remotes section.
• Yes, the IR remote will not appear in the list of paired remotes, and will control both Rokus at the same time.
• Yes, if the RF remote hasn't been paired with a Roku, it's possible it is still using IR to control the player, and the IR would control both devices at the same time.

Router stuff:

Unless you pull the power, the Roku itself is never "off". So it could still be broadcasting the hidden WiFi signal. Things like weather stations (I have one) outdoor thermometers (I have more than one) operate on completely different frequencies normally, so should not appear as a WiFi signal. The 4G module on the generator is using cellular, so again different frequencies.

I can't say exactly how far away I am receiving signals from other access points, but even filtering out the "weak" signals I'm still seeing about 35 access points sitting here in my chair. About 2/3 of them are labeled "hidden" but that doesn't mean they are all RF remotes from different devices. On your router you have the option to turn off SSID broadcasting, and that would make your network "hidden" as well. My neighbor across the street (I know his SSID) only shows about 21% signal quality, so it wouldn't be a very good connection, and that's maybe 100-150' away. The first access point that isn't one of mine shows a quality of 42%, compared to mine showing about 80%. 

[JKasten]

---

@atc98092 wrote:

---

Every version of Roku Express (no + or 4K added to the name) only comes with the basic IR remote

There are Express 4K and Express 4K+ models. Only the + version comes with the Voice remote.

Was I correct in thinking that the "+" indicates the voice-capable remote (and the absence of the + indicates the basic (IR) remote)?  (That's what I based my original selection of Express and Express 4K+ on - to get different remotes).

• The RF remotes are also capable of IR control, but my understanding is when it is paired with a Roku player the IR codes are disabled, and IR will only control a TV power/volume.
• Yes, linked and paired mean the same thing. Yes, any RF remote paired with a player should be shown in the Settings/Remotes section.
• Yes, the IR remote will not appear in the list of paired remotes, and will control both Rokus at the same time.
• Yes, if the RF remote hasn't been paired with a Roku, it's possible it is still using IR to control the player, and the IR would control both devices at the same time.

OK, I'm getting more confused when trying to account for the reason(s) for the behaviors that I'm seeing, but it appears that my voice remote is not paired with either Roku (that is, it operates both Rokus yet I don't see it listed anywhere in the Roku properties) - even though it went through the pairing process during the activation of the Express 4K+).

At this point, if might help to understand which component(s) (Roku and/or remote) store the pairing status information, and what events (such as Roku power-off, or remote battery removal) can "erase" the pairing status.  It's also unclear how to successfully "re-pair" the remote with a Roku when necessary.

In any case, even when things are working properly, it sounds like the basic (IR-only) remote would be sort of useless because it would control both Rokus simultaneously (unless the IR reception can be blocked on one Roku, or unless the Roku that's paired with the RF remote will then respond only to RF commands - that would be nice).

The aspect of the voice remote controlling the TV via IR brings up an interesting question:  Where is the IR transmitter "window" on the voice remote?  (I see absolutely nothing on its housing that looks like an IR LED or "window"... and the only Visible LED openings that I see are on top of the remote, to the left of the power button - where they don't "point at" the TV when the remote is held normally.  Curious!

Router stuff:

Unless you pull the power, the Roku itself is never "off". So it could still be broadcasting the hidden WiFi signal. Things like weather stations (I have one) outdoor thermometers (I have more than one) operate on completely different frequencies normally, so should not appear as a WiFi signal. The 4G module on the generator is using cellular, so again different frequencies.

Yeah, I meant that the Rokus were de-powered when I said they were "off".  And the hidden network shows up even when the Router is de-powered.... and the only non-Roku remotes that I have are IR types.  So, apparently there is nothing on-premises (that I know of) which accounts for the hidden network.  Interesting...

I can't say exactly how far away I am receiving signals from other access points, but even filtering out the "weak" signals I'm still seeing about 35 access points sitting here in my chair. About 2/3 of them are labeled "hidden" but that doesn't mean they are all RF remotes from different devices. On your router you have the option to turn off SSID broadcasting, and that would make your network "hidden" as well. My neighbor across the street (I know his SSID) only shows about 21% signal quality, so it wouldn't be a very good connection, and that's maybe 100-150' away. The first access point that isn't one of mine shows a quality of 42%, compared to mine showing about 80%. 

---

Yeah, I noticed the Router option to "Hide" - although I didn't understand the significance of that option prior to this discussion.  In my case, the Router's network appears in the Laptop's scan when the Router's Wi-Fi is active or also when the Router is connected to the laptop via ethernet while the Router's Wi-Fi is disabled.  (This is a bit of a surprise because I expected that only available Wi-Fi networks would be "found" by the Wi-Fi scan - so either the scan detects ethernet networks too, or else the Router's Wi-Fi actually is not turning off when disabled).  Beyond the Router's network and that hidden network, no other networks are found by the laptop's scan.  (I haven't tried scanning for Wi-Fi from my cellphone).  As far as network signal strength, I haven't found that info anywhere.

[atc98092]

It does appear that both of your Roku remotes are working in IR mode. Why the one doesn't show paired, I have no idea. But you should be able to re-pair the Voice remote using the pairing function in the Remote settings. Once that is done, I believe the IR control of the Roku will cease for that remote. I know I have multiple Roku players that are within the same area and there is no interaction between any remote and a Roku other than the one it's paired with.

Why you're still seeing a hidden network with your Rokus completely powered off, I can't explain. The WiFi scanner I use does report the MAC address of the hidden network, so that might be able to tell you the brand of device that is broadcasting. I suppose it might be the remote itself, since they are always powered on unless the batteries are removed. 

Based on the Wiki information, the Express 4K 3940 and the 4K+ 3941 are identical except for the included remote. Looking at older devices, the + in general does indicate the RF remote being included instead of the IR remote. The one exception is any version of Roku Stick, as they don't support IR at all so they all come with an RF remote. But there's still an exception or two there, so it doesn't appear hard and fast that a + model will come with an RF remote.

I've never owned a basic Express, so I have no idea if they even support adding an RF remote. The way to tell would be looking at the Remote settings menu for a pairing function. If it's there, then you should be able to buy a Voice Remote for it as well.

[JKasten]

---

@atc98092 wrote:

It does appear that both of your Roku remotes are working in IR mode.

If the basic remote works only in IR mode, then no question about that one.  Otherwise - and in the case of the voice remote - how can one tell which mode is in use?  If the voice remote is capable of operating via both IR and RF at the same time - especially when it's not paired - then the 4K+ could be responding to IR only, RF only, or even to both.  If the Express doesn't respond to RF, then the voice remote must be sending at least IR - but I guess the 4K+ could be responding to either IR or RF from the voice remote (if it is sending both).  Confusing!

Why the one doesn't show paired, I have no idea. But you should be able to re-pair the Voice remote using the pairing function in the Remote settings. Once that is done, I believe the IR control of the Roku will cease for that remote.

My guess is that the 4K+ - or the voice remote - lost its pairing for some reason.  Possibly because I had de-powered them when swapping things for testing.  However, I did attempt to re-pair them - but the behavior didn't change after that (and there was no listed remote) so it makes me wonder if the re-pairing "took".  Certainly, if the voice remote can be made to send only RF, and the 4K+ can be made to receive only RF by whatever means, then the dual-control problem should be solved.

I know I have multiple Roku players that are within the same area and there is no interaction between any remote and a Roku other than the one it's paired with.

Just checking:  Are there more than two types of Roku remotes - especially ones that can be paired with the Rokus?  If so, then perhaps the "preferred" solution would be to use only pair-able Rokus and remotes.  (Of course, this assumes that pairing ensures an exclusive one-to-one connection between each Roku and its remote). 

Ideally, I'd prefer to use only IR remotes rather than RF remotes - IF it is possible to pair remotes when using IR mode.

Router and Networks:

Why you're still seeing a hidden network with your Rokus completely powered off, I can't explain.

My only ideas are that it's a "foreign" network... or emanating from some device or system that I haven't accounted for.  The only reason this may be an issue is if it is the cause of some sporadic interference with my scanning radios and/or the cause of some random-ish un-commanded operations of some remote-control lighting systems here.  Main thing is that it's existence is unexpected/unexplained.

Based on the Wiki information, the Express 4K 3940 and the 4K+ 3941 are identical except for the included remote. Looking at older devices, the + in general does indicate the RF remote being included instead of the IR remote. The one exception is any version of Roku Stick, as they don't support IR at all so they all come with an RF remote. But there's still an exception or two there, so it doesn't appear hard and fast that a + model will come with an RF remote.

I wonder if the "+" denotes some feature other than the voice remote - that just happens to be included primarily in the voice remote sets.  If so, then I have no idea what it designates.

I've never owned a basic Express, so I have no idea if they even support adding an RF remote. The way to tell would be looking at the Remote settings menu for a pairing function. If it's there, then you should be able to buy a Voice Remote for it as well.

---

There were two main reasons why I bought one Express and one Express 4K+ for my initial try-out of Roku:  First was to get two different remotes (in hopes of avoiding interactions - because I had no idea of the pairing aspect at that time), and second, I anticipate using the less expensive Expresses with my "secondary" small-screen TV sets - which are 1080p, so using 4K for those would be "overkill".  If a pairable - and economical - remote is available for the Express (or if there is better way to resolve this dual-control **bleep**), then I may as well stick with the plan and get another set of one Express and one Express 4K+; otherwise, my second round of Rokus probably should be two Express 4K+'s instead.

By the way, is there an Express+?  (Seems like I recall seeing that somewhere - perhaps in the Roku compatibility article - or not).  If that exists, then it would not only suggest that the Express can be paired with a voice remote, but also it probably would be a better choice for my circumstances.

Wow!  I never would have thought that the remotes would be such a big hairy deal for this.  Too bad because most everything else about the Rokus seemed to go very smoothly.

[AvsGunnar]

@JKasten 

Two recent postings by @Tivoburkee (remote expert around here) seem to address the situation you are having.

https://community.roku.com/t5/Remotes/Pairing-a-simple-remote-to-one-tv/m-p/988396#M51963

https://community.roku.com/t5/Remotes/Two-Roju-Express-on-same-account-but-different-rooms/m-p/98854...

---

Basically, if you purchase another Voice Remote for use with your 3960, that should resolve your issue with the IR conflicts. (each Voice Remote will pair to their respective device and stop the conflict).

However, if you are still in the return window for the Express 3960, then I would return it and purchase another Express 4k+ 3941 which will come with a Voice Remote.  The Voice Remote options start at $20 so just seems to make more sense to purchase a device that comes with it.

edited to add... By the way, which TP Link router did you end up going with?

[atc98092]

@AvsGunnar offers some good advice. Two voice remotes that are paired to different devices will only control the device it's paired to. If you re-pair the voice remote you have to the Express 4K+, that will turn off the IR control of the remote and would no longer control the Express. It won't control both devices at the same time. 

There are several versions of the Voice remote, but there's only two styles of remotes: RF and IR. Roku only had one player that supported Bluetooth remotes, and that was more than 10 years ago. 

[JKasten]

---

@AvsGunnar wrote:

---

Basically, if you purchase another Voice Remote for use with your 3960, that should resolve your issue with the IR conflicts. (each Voice Remote will pair to their respective device and stop the conflict).

I concur - assuming the Express will support the voice remote.  Too bad that IR remotes can't pair - but see my update below...

However, if you are still in the return window for the Express 3960, then I would return it and purchase another Express 4k+ 3941 which will come with a Voice Remote.  The Voice Remote options start at $20 so just seems to make more sense to purchase a device that comes with it.

Yeah, I was seeing the voice remotes for $20- and the 4K+ for $30- (although locally, those are $40-) - so it would make sense to go with the 4K+ (and I could just keep the Express as a "backup").   I did notice some indications that the voice remotes are prone to failure; any idea of the veracity of that?

edited to add... By the way, which TP Link router did you end up going with?

---

The only TP-Link router available locally was the AC1900 (that I got).  Closest alternatives were a (less expensive) Linksys, and a (much more expensive) Netgear, although I don't recall the models.  They also have some Netgear NightHawk AX's - but those were at least twice the price of the Netgear AC.

Situation Update:

The plot sickens...  Last evening, I wanted to test the planned layout for upstairs, so I discombobulated the test setup I had downstairs and moved the components upstairs and hooked them up via a (temporary) ethernet cable run up the stairway from the router (with the future wall jacks in the line).  The results were worrisome (in that they were unexpected and unexplained), yet hopeful (in that everything appeared to work as it is supposed to work).  The unexpected/unexplained aspect is that, although I did nothing with the pairing, the voice remote  now controlled only the 4K+, and unfortunately the IR remote still controlled both Rokus, despite trying to shade the 4K+'s IR port.  After several trials and errors, I put the 4K+ inside a nearly-closed cardboard box.  Then both remotes controlled only their respective Rokus.  Yay!   Wanting to explore the Roku channel offerings, I was reluctant about mucking around further, so I didn't go ahead and try to pair the voice remote with the Express - so I don't know whether that combo will play together.

I did, however, try using the voice (RF) remote downstairs - to see whether it could control the 4K+ (that was still upstairs.  I connected the upstairs 4K+ to one of the downstairs TV's via a wireless HDMI extender).  This worked fine, so it opens up an interesting alternative:  Instead of using four Rokus, each connected exclusively to one TV, it is possible to use just two Roku's (located downstairs, near the Router) and use an HDMI switch on each Roku to route their HDMI outputs to either an upstairs or a downstairs TV (because I can only use either the upstairs TVs or the downstairs TVs at any given time).  This arrangement offers the benefit of reducing the equipment needed (and the power consumed by it)... but raises disadvantages due to needing to run two HDMI cables upstairs instead of just one ethernet cable, and the inconvenience of ensuring that the HDMI switches get set as needed for the desired viewing location, and that the remotes are in that location.  (HDMI splitters could be used instead of switches, but the splitters require power, where the switches do not... and two extra voice remotes could be used (assuming that two voice remotes can be paired with each Roku) - but economically I might as well just buy two more Rokus with their own voice remotes than to buy the two extra voice remotes).  So, it's an interesting decision - whether to opt for saving some money and power versus avoiding inconvenience.  (I suppose that going the more inconvenient HDMI route would have the side-benefit of giving my brain and/or muscles some exercise due to having to remember to set the switches and shlepp the remotes... 😉

Anyway, thanks guys for all your help with this.  It's looking hopeful - so long as the remotes work out OK.  Now on to find the TV channels that I want on Roku... I hope that I can find the ones that I used to watch (before Spectrum's "down-grade"/price hike), or at least equivalent programming.

[JKasten]

---

@atc98092 wrote:

@AvsGunnar offers some good advice. Two voice remotes that are paired to different devices will only control the device it's paired to. If you re-pair the voice remote you have to the Express 4K+, that will turn off the IR control of the remote and would no longer control the Express. It won't control both devices at the same time. 

There are several versions of the Voice remote, but there's only two styles of remotes: RF and IR. Roku only had one player that supported Bluetooth remotes, and that was more than 10 years ago. 

---

I kind of expected (hoped?) that pairing would cause a remote to work exclusively with one Roku - but initial indications seemed otherwise.  Interestingly, I discovered that the Roku-paired and TV-linked voice remote tended to control both TVs (via IR), even though the TVs are different brands.  Weird - but not necessarily bad in the case of power-on/off... but there could be times when I'd want to adjust the volume on only one TV, not both.

The main thing that I was wondering about types of remotes is whether there are any RF remotes that are not voice remotes.  (Sounds like there are not).

(If you haven't already seen my Update reply about the remotes situation, then you may be interested in what's reported there... couldn't figure how to link that reply here, though).