Wi-Fi & connectivity

[JKasten]

atc98092:

<Snickering...>  Yeah, that old Hub probably would make a better doorstop than boat anchor... although perhaps it could find a home in some museum - along with a couple old 386 towers that are lurking around here.  All I need to do is to locate the appropriate curator!  😉

Well, I'd better get back to figuring out what Router I can get that will work properly with everything...

Thanks for your "teaching".

[AvsGunnar]

@JKasten 

First, you will keep the Hitron en2251 modem just like it is. (this is your "internet" connection, aka "gateway").

Second, you can use any router you wish.  The only time you need an "ISP approved/compatible" router is needed is if you are using a router and modem "combo" unit to replace an ISP modem.  That is, the new router will serve both as a router and a modem/gateway.  For you, your new router will only be used for routing, and not serving as a gateway. (you will continue to use your Hitron en2251 as the gateway. (the Hitron en2251 is only a modem - it does not have any routing capabilities.  Some ISP modems are actually a modem and router, but this one is not.  It also lacks wireless capabilties(wifi).  This really is more of a business modem, than a typical residential modem.).   It is a good modem, so keep it in place and you are good to go.

Third, the built-in ethernet ports on a router is basically a "switch".  The switch is just built-in to the router.  It is more economical to buy an additional unmanaged switch (like your Netgear switch) to add and extend additional ethernet ports, than it is for router manufactures to produce a router with 8-10 physical ethernet ports that may go unused.  Also, it gets to be a "rats nest" of wires in larger wired networks to have to run all the ethernet cables back to the router from all across a building.

Normally, you would just run one cable from the router to the switch (and place the switch in some central location) and then run all the wires to this switch.

A switch does not have any routing capabilities. (it lacks a DHCP server which hands out a LAN IP address to a connected device).  A switch just builds a MAC address table inside the unit to distinguish the different connected devices so they can communicate with each other as needed.  Each connected device comes with its own unique MAC address.

All ethernet wires connected to a switch make up one network. (the same network).  Whereas you can connect ethernet cables to a router and create multiple networks. (ie. connecting another switch to the router gives the user an ability to create an additional/seperate network).

Because of their different functions, switches are usually going to be much faster than a router with data transfer.  Routers have a lot of tasks to perform, whereas a switch just transfers data.

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Trying to not get too far into the weeds here.  (probably too late).

To make your life simple, I would just purchase the wired router (if that is your preference), and run an ethernet cable from it to your Hitron en2251 modem.  Then run an ethernet cable from your Netgear 8- port switch to the new wired router.  This really should give you plenty of expandibility for awhile.

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In the future, if you need a wifi connection, you can learn how to use the hotspot on your phone or look into how you can use your laptop to act as a wireless hotspot by using your internet connection (this is an ad-hoc hotspot) .  If a Windows user, instructions can be found here. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/use-your-windows-pc-as-a-mobile-hotspot-c89b0fad-72d5-41...

edit... Missed all the other replies here while typing.  You should now have plenty of info to get going from @makaiguy and @atc98092 .

[atc98092]

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@JKasten wrote:

atc98092:

OK, thanks... now the routing through cascaded switches makes sense to me.

I'm wondering what effect the cascading has on performance, though.  I don't know what the Rokus actually need performance-wise but my incoming is sort of "shoestring", so I don't want to degrade things much.

By the way, in an ethernet/Wi-Fi router, are the ethernet ports entirely separate functionally from the Wi-Fi, or is it a situation where you "lose" a Wi-Fi "port" for each ethernet port that is connected? 

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If your wired network is 100 BaseT (100 Mbps) there's a potential for bottlenecks to occur on cascaded switches. However, in practice that's enough bandwidth that performance normally isn't an issue. If you use Gigabit switches, the potential is mostly eliminated. 

WiFi, if using a remote access point, is only using a single Ethernet port. The loss of that access point would have no impact on any other port in that switch. For WiFi that is provided by the router, it is using a separate internal path, so the loss of the WiFi on the router would again not impact the remainder of the router and switch functionality, assuming that whatever caused the loss of WiFi did not also impact the router as a whole. 

[JKasten]

AvsGunnar:

Oh, so Spectrum is "blowing smoke" when they try to limit customers to "approved" Routers?  Interesting... Could it be because certain Routers allow them more access - so they can control more of "your" local network?  But, if that restriction is bogus and can be ignored, then it sure opens up a lot more possibilities for finding a practical Router.

The cable-routing considerations that you mention also seem to open more/better options for me.

When a new device is added to a (Router-based) local network, and the initial "negotiations" have been successful, just what ID information gets stored where?  And how "persistent" is that information?  (Primarily wondering what happens when a "registered" device gets disconnected and then re-connected or if there is a power outage).  I assume that the MAC is "built into" the device itself, but what about the "dynamic" information?

I didn't realize that Routers can/do create separate local networks on each port... I had just assumed that it was all one local network.  Now, I'm curious whether such separate networks offer any advantage(s) for my limited network?

The combination of all I've learned today only reinforces my original thought to get a combo ethernet/Wi-Fi Router whose Wi-Fi functions can be disabled separately from the ethernet functions.   Again, that seems to open more palatable options.

I do not think that I properly understand "hotspots" - which I thought were wireless Internet portals for Smartphones via Cell service.  Are they instead more akin to wireless counterparts of the hardware Modem/Router combination?  Not being a significant user of either Wi-Fi or Cell, this stuff is foreign to me.  In any case, what would I need a hotspot for in this situation?

Wow!  This exchange already has been very enlightening - on several fronts; thanks guys! 

[JKasten]

at98092:

Honestly, I have no idea whether this is a "100base-T" network.  The ISP currently provides "100 Mbps", and we've discussed the devices involved (I believe the Switch I have is billed as a Gigabit device), and I currently have (or have on order) Cat5e and Cat6 ethernet cables.  Beyond that, I have no clue.

Also, not sure about the access point stuff, but my question was an attempt to understand whether/how the ethernet ports of a Router interact with its Wi-Fi "ports".  In particular, can a Router simultaneously support all devices connected via its ethernet ports and those connected via Wi-Fi - such that, if I was willing, I could for example direct-wire my Laptop(s) and a couple of Rokus to the Router's ethernet ports, while using the Router's Wi-Fi to connect two or three other devices to the same Router wirelessly.  (I'm not familiar with how Wi-Fi is "broken out" from a Router; I only notice that Routers have varying numbers of antennas, which I assume have a one-to-one correlation with Wi-Fi "ports" or "channels", each dedicated to a Wi-Fi device in the same way as an ethernet port is dedicated to an ethernet device.  Or, is the Wi-Fi more like an ethernet Switch, which can connect/coordinate multiple devices at once (via individual "channels")?  In other words, what is the purpose of the multiple antennas on a Router?) 

Thanks for the instruction!

[atc98092]

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@JKasten wrote:

When a new device is added to a (Router-based) local network, and the initial "negotiations" have been successful, just what ID information gets stored where?  And how "persistent" is that information?  (Primarily wondering what happens when a "registered" device gets disconnected and then re-connected or if there is a power outage).  I assume that the MAC is "built into" the device itself, but what about the "dynamic" information?

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When an IP device is authenticated to the network, the only information about that device is stored in the DHCP server database. It's the MAC address (which is specific to every device, and devices with multiple network adapters, such as a laptop with WiFi and Ethernet adapters, will have a MAC address for each adapter), the IP address assigned, and maybe some other hardware related information. It is not accessible outside the router itself, but of course if the cable provider can access their modem they can see that info in the DB table.

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I do not think that I properly understand "hotspots" - which I thought were wireless Internet portals for Smartphones via Cell service.  Are they instead more akin to wireless counterparts of the hardware Modem/Router combination?  Not being a significant user of either Wi-Fi or Cell, this stuff is foreign to me.  In any case, what would I need a hotspot for in this situation?

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A hotspot refers to either an access point on a smartphone, or a standalone cellular device that only provides the Internet connection (no phone services). The term isn't generally used for access points from other devices, although some places (such as a coffee shop or store) might refer to their customer Internet access points as "hotspots". The proper name for that sort of connection is simply a WAP: wireless access point.

[atc98092]

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@JKasten wrote:

at98092:

Honestly, I have no idea whether this is a "100base-T" network.  The ISP currently provides "100 Mbps", and we've discussed the devices involved (I believe the Switch I have is billed as a Gigabit device), and I currently have (or have on order) Cat5e and Cat6 ethernet cables.  Beyond that, I have no clue.

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I just looked up your modem, and it is absolutely something designed for business use. It is capable of multi-Gigabit speeds, and the single LAN port is 2.5 Gbps, so 2.5 times Gigabit. The fact it has a single port tells me it's designed to connect to a router that provides the networking functions we've discussed above. 

Cat5e cables work just fine at Gigabit speeds on a home network. There's no need to pay more for Cat7 or 6 cables. Just make sure any switches you buy (and the router too of course) has Gigabit ports, and your entire internal network will be Gigabit. 

[AvsGunnar]

@JKasten 

Spectrum isn't really blowing smoke, nor is any other ISP that provides a list of recommended/compatible equipment.

The confusion lies with the terminology.  Only a modem needs to be ISP compatible.

Most routers on the market are actually a modem and router combined.  Therefore, if you decide to just buy one piece of equipment (a router with a built-in modem), then that router has to be on the ISP recommended.compatible list so that it works with their "internet network". (this is the WAN portion of a network).

Your current piece of equipment, the Hitron en2251 is just a modem, not a router.

Other Spectrum customers may have been issued a modem/router combo unit. (Spectrum usually provides Arris SBG models to their residential customers).  Therefore, if these customers wanted to add their own router to their network, they could either (a) buy a Spectrum-compatible modem/router and send back their leased Arris model to Spectrum, or (b)place the Arris model into a Bridge Mode (in order to disable the DHCP server and make their modem/router into a modem-only mode, and then connect "any" router after the Arris to handle the routing needs of the network. (the DHCP would be enabled on the new router).  

Only the piece of equipment that is the gateway to the internet has to be ISP compatible. (ISP means Internet Service Provider).  

You currently have an ideal setup regarding ease.  When you purchase your new router, you will just place it into "router mode" and hook it up to your existing modem.  You will likely have very little initial configuration to do on the router to just get up and going.

I also think your new decision to consider a wifi router is a good choice.  You have plenty to choose from in all price points and you can disable/enable features as your needs change.  It is normally best to just start with a simple, basic network and then customize it as you go.  Too many get stuck on designing a network that covers everything but will likely never use. (don't confuse this with doing research making sure you are buying the right things for your current needs).

Since all you are trying to accomplish is connect a few streaming devices and your laptop to your internet, a reasonably priced wifi6 router and your existing Netgear 8-port switch are all you need for a decent, working home network. (again, if you keep the Hitron in place, you just need any router.  If you decide to swap out the Hitron, you will need a router that is Spectrum-compatible because you will also be using it as a modem).  I would suggest keeping the Hitron in place for now for your modem.

[atc98092]

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@JKasten wrote:

Also, not sure about the access point stuff, but my question was an attempt to understand whether/how the ethernet ports of a Router interact with its Wi-Fi "ports".  In particular, can a Router simultaneously support all devices connected via its ethernet ports and those connected via Wi-Fi - such that, if I was willing, I could for example direct-wire my Laptop(s) and a couple of Rokus to the Router's ethernet ports, while using the Router's Wi-Fi to connect two or three other devices to the same Router wirelessly.  (I'm not familiar with how Wi-Fi is "broken out" from a Router; I only notice that Routers have varying numbers of antennas, which I assume have a one-to-one correlation with Wi-Fi "ports" or "channels", each dedicated to a Wi-Fi device in the same way as an ethernet port is dedicated to an ethernet device.  Or, is the Wi-Fi more like an ethernet Switch, which can connect/coordinate multiple devices at once (via individual "channels")?  In other words, what is the purpose of the multiple antennas on a Router?) 

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There's really no interaction between the wireless connections and the wired connections unless/until one tries to access the other. Two wireless devices "talking" to each other would never appear on the wired side of the router. There's usually a bitrate limit to what the wireless and wired connections can handle, but with Gigabit speeds it's highly unlikely you would ever notice any performance issues because of the network activity. 

Multiple antennas on an access point/router can be used for multiple reasons. One reason could be the 2.4 and 5 GHz radios use different antennas. But generally they are used for things like shaping the signal so it might broadcast in a certain direction, or sending multiple packets in separate streams that use different antennas. In broad terms, multiple antennas usually means improved performance. 

[JKasten]

AvsGunnar:

OK, I'm a little "tainted" by Spectrum, so after hearing/seeing everything they've put out that implies an "approved" Router must be used - or else - your revelation "tweeked" me a bit.  So, thanks for your explanation.

Speaking of Arris, one of the prior Modems they supplied to me was an Arris - but they "upgraded" the equipment from time to time, and the Hiltron is what I ended up with.  Apparently, that was fortuitous for my current situation. 🙂

In any case, the good news is that I found locally what seems to be a good deal on a TP-Link Router that sounds like it should suffice.  I hooked things up for testing and it was pretty much plug'n'play (No apparent glitches nor headaches during setup of the hardware, nor activation of the Rokus.  Everything seemed to play fine - even the Wi-fi - although figuring out the navigation of the Roku environment seems daunting out of the gate).  The downside of the setup is that I encountered an unanticipated problem with the Roku remotes which may be a bit of a show-stopper for my intended use:  I thought that at least the basic Roku remote was IR - but both behave as if they are RF, with either remote operating both Rokus at the same time (even though the audio remote was "paired" with the Express 4K+).  This seems to be true even when one of the Rokus are "shaded" from the remote. So, the problem is how I will be able to operate the two Rokus independently.  (I haven't yet looked into this, so hopefully there is a simple "fix"). 

Another oddity that I didn't stop to check out was when I moved the Rokus off of the Router and inserted the Switch into the network, the Rokus started working as soon as their ethernet cables were connected to the Switch - before I powered-up the Switch!  Weird!  But it makes me wonder if the Switch can be used un-powered - thus saving some electricity.  

Otherwise, things seem to work fine:  No internet issues with the Laptop, and no streaming issues noticed with both Rokus running and the Laptop active all at once.  The only "oops" was I had an eye-fart - or perhaps a brain-fart - at the store, and brought home a Wifi5 Router that I could have sworn said "Wifi6" at the store.  What sort of issue(s) could this 5 vs 6 cause?

Thanks again for all your good advice about resolving this situation!