Discussions

[Visitor45763]

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@ku-sux wrote: That sounds like a cover story. And there's no way to know whether the CSRs are even aware of it not being true. The thinking ones should have an inkling.

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I agree. I think they're better than this. It's not their fault the company doesn't take customer service (nor integrity) seriously. I just think the company could save some money with an auto-reply bot. ("Thank you. I've passed it along. Come again.[Enzyte Bob smile]" That's gotta be a rough job to come to every morning.).

Your thoughts about the tiered system sounds like the same "nature" I've been seeing in antenna tv. I don't stream much. I would have never thought of it being "induced" the way you described. (It doesn't sound like you use the antenna tv part much, and wouldn't think of those "freeloaders" being induced similarly.).

I'm surprised class-action types haven't gotten a whiff of this yet. That wouldn't necessarily be a win for the customer. (We'd all get a check for $2.34.). But, Roku seems to be begging for it. It's not a balanced, equitable approach. If Roku wants to "advance" things this way. Fine. But, customers should have a way to revert back to the previously working version of software. (In your streaming case, if Roku wants to stop offering streaming. Or, offer it with caveats about "subject to availability." That's fine. But, the people who bought without those limitations should be grandfathered in.). Everything seems to just work in Roku's favor. Including the allusions to bugs being due the tv makers -- while at the same time not wanting track bugs for more than mere allusions.

I keep seeing a lack of integrity. If this is how it is, Roku could say so. If it's not, they could deny it (and change course). Instead, they just like the ill-defined status quo (which always works against the customer). Like you, I think the CSRs are better than that. I feel sorry for them.

[ku-sux]

I just went thru the same routine I've gone thru countless times, trying to get any FREE content to load. Same result as usual, mid-afternoon on a Wednesday. I rarely try to watch anything in the daytime. This just shows that the problem is getting worse. It used to be more restricted to prime time in the US. I even installed another so-called FREE content channel called Stirr. No content will play on that channel either. Meanwhile I get emails like the one I just got from Plex touting new free content. Great but none of it will play on this Roku Ultra.

You have got me thinking about the more sinister explanation. The benefit of the doubt may be slipping away, but you said "There's really no other explanation," which is what I was refuting in my last post. The tiering algorithm does provide an optional explanation. When the max user threshold is met, the block on FREE content engages.

Plus, your idea of depriving customers until they cry uncle and pay up just doesn't sound reasonable to me. Roku set the expectation of FREE content so they have to figure they would just piss people off by intentionally not delivering it. And most TVs today can readily accept the wi-fi signal so getting pissed and cutting out the middle man (Roku) appears to me to be a more probable result.

Now when you say "EVERYTHING else" leads you to suspect collusion or whatever, I don't know what that means. I think you've been on Roku a lot longer than me so please fill me in. I don't see the collusion idea as realistic yet, but since this appears to be your favored theory for being unable to access FREE content, I'd like to see something that supports it. I'd be equally interested in anything that does not support my tiered algorithm theory.

And when you say "A lot of things look crooked to me," what are these things?

[Visitor45763]

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@ku-sux wrote: but you said "There's really no other explanation," which is what I was refuting in my last post. The tiering algorithm does provide an optional explanation. When the max user threshold is met, the block on FREE content engages.

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I was referring to the antenna tv bombshell. There's really zero way to explain that as just "oops." Either someone extremely unskilled is protected (the slow nephew), or there's some other, more modern explanation ("analytics that show if we disrupt this many antenna-tv watchers, we'll get a 15% increase in paying subscribers." Later in the month, "Sir, we need to do something boost our quarterly results. The shareholder meeting is just weeks away." The CEO: "What was that nerd saying about shaking down the antenna tv watchers?"). 

It's really that startling. Add 1000 streaming channels (which you can't narrow down to the 10-100 you might like to watch). At the very same time: get rid of "favorites" which was a reasonable way to navigate quickly. At the very same time: get rid of continuous channel changing. One button press, one channel. Next? (All of this after YEARS of ignoring customers asking for a numeric remote to directly jump to channels).

There's no way to look at that as a good idea. Either a nephew is running around the top floor, or there's a method to the madness. Nobody's that ungifted and gets away with it. (Compared to the more realistic view: "Sir, if we disrupt this many freeloaders, our quantitative analysis shows this demographic will upspend by....").

So, I'm just saying: that same predatory mindset could be at work with your streaming experience. It could even be time based. The longer you own your tv (without forking over some dough), the worse it gets. The lower the tier you find yourself on. We're probably referred to as "fleas."

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I think you've been on Roku a lot longer than me so please fill me in.

An entire month & 1/2. I've had my regrettable Roku tvs for 1-2 years (I forget when). Just a happy source of demographic plucking until the recent update wrecked my tv.  I came here thinking this must be a mistake. It's been a real eye-opener. I think there's blatant crookedness going on.

I bet there's more going on with free-streaming starvation (you've seen) than just "unforecast demand." I bet their prioritization of that matter is informed by their quantitative analytics showing people upspend more when starved for free stuff. Once they've locked you into the tv investment, then it's like boiling frogs. Right? What are you going to do? Buy a new tv? Or, just fork over the dough for the easy solution? (Or, engage Enzyte Bob on the forum. They'll do that with you until you get tired and go away.).

I don't think this is anything like good-natured, ambitious, over-extended business challenges. It looks intentional by its shamelessness. 

[ku-sux]

Aha! This explains one thing but not the no FREE content issue. The topic of the thread is causing a little confusion. Maybe there is a better spot for my issue. As I understand this now, your gripe relates to your Roku TVs that you've had for a couple years where you've seen all these changes take place that affect you negatively.

I don't have a Roku TV. I bought a Roku Ultra just a couple months ago and I unable to get any of the FREE content that Roku touted in its marketing. You posted here in reference to the first part of the thread about antenna TV. I posted in reference to the second part of the thread title (...Nor do...). Like I said, I have never even tried to use the antenna TV feature on Roku. We're kinda talking apples and oranges. They evidently have more control over your TV and I am unable to relate to the issues you've encountered.

And who is this boogernose clown? Some Roku n'er-do-well trying to quiet the growing angry mob?

[Visitor45763]

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@ku-sux wrote: As I understand this now, your gripe relates to your Roku TVs

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It appears Roku's streaming sticks aren't as bad as Roku TV (the software licensed to tv makers). I've speculated this could be something like the difference between Apple & Microsoft. Apple always had a walled garden of approved hardware. It was known for stability, predictability (fewer choices). Microsoft was the Mad Max of computers. (Buy the wrong RS232 card, or a nameless 2400-baud modem, and your printer wouldn't work. There was (is?) no reference standard for hardware to comply to. Just a constantly moving target.).

I've got a feeling that, in Roku's zeal to conquer the world (with pre-loaded tvs as the "inroads" to everyone's home), Roku overlooked/underestimated how to support 15 brands -- each with two dozen models (each model with various revisions, as components are purchased in lots from the lowest bidder).

This is where Roku will never explain what's happening (or what's expected to happen, isn't happening, etc.). Is there a hardware spec that the tv makers are deviating from? Is there a test suite to validate hardware? Is Roku not developing to that suite? Are tv makers expected to test/validate updates before those updates are released? Or, were they just expected to never make a tv that doesn't comply to the hardware spec? Now it's just "tough luck, it's not our fault?"

Whatever the answer is, it's clear something isn't working. Roku is not helpful when it evades this topic (with "thank you, come again" contributions to affected customers). It's reasonable that we want to know what's wrong & being done to ensure this doesn't happen again. Instead, Roku's acting like nothing's happening. In fact, Roku is so unhelpful that you have to wonder if it's a "convenient" cover for their own malfeasance.

That's is the collusion tactic I was thinking of.

Roku constantly implies it's some unknowable, unfathomable problem "probably" due to the tv maker. You could be the 100th person to report the same problem which began with an untested update, and the response will be the same "thank you, come again" like they've never heard it before (and have no concern for how their updates are negatively affecting customers. Or, that their licensed partners are negatively affecting customers.). If it's the partners, you'd think Roku would feel some responsibility for hiding that fact, and enabling it through what it knows is a partnership not functioning the way they wanted it to. If Roku's like that (which the most generous explanation leaves no doubt they are), then it may not be the tv makers at all. It could be that same sleazy ethos breaking tvs for its own purposes. (I.e., it's easier to not support outlier hardware anymore? The affected people aren't upspending enough? Roku fleas to get rid of?).

We've already established that these conjectures are not unreasonable. It's something this malignant. It's not just an oversight or a breakdown in leadership.

The way Roku is absolutely allergic to professional change control, bug tracking, etc., when (the most generous explanation is that their partner tv makers are making a well-intentioned Roku look bad) is obviously absurd. It's not what someone who wants to conquer the tv world would do. They would protect customers from a bad partner. Not enable it with double-talk and innuendo. Roku must be getting something out of this. It's easier to not test, not track bugs, be ambiguous about the source of the problem.

And then, like I said before:/, the destruction of Antenna TV can't be blamed on anyone other than Roku. It can't be dismissed as mere bad idea. Nobody has ideas like that (unless they're protected; the CEO's nephew). Antenna TV is broken enough that either it was deliberate (to drive trapped tv owners to upspend for more profitable content for Roku. Or, it wasn't tested at all. Nobody saw it broken this way before it was pushed out.).

The way 9.4 continued (and still is, I think) pushed out for months after that problem became apparent adds to the already-obvious conclusion that something foul is happening. It looks more planned, calculated, deliberate. 

The common msg is: the customer comes last. Your external streaming stick involves the same "leadership" and organization. The same deficit of integrity, choosing to starve viewers of promised content because there's something in it for Roku. I mean, I would expect the same "customer comes last" motto in all things Roku. Not just the blurry Roku TV situation where nobody's responsible (conveniently) for anything at all. Customers are glibly talked past as a matter of routine.

I'd probably buy another Roku TV. But, I would never connect it to the internet. I would just use it as a "dumb tv." I'm happy with my tvs. I just don't want them to be subjected to Roku's apparent irresponsibility. That's why I wouldn't buy a Roku stick. Even though they reportedly don't have the problems Roku TV does, we can see that Roku has become as predatory and disengaged from its customers as the content providers we "cut the cord" from. What makes this worse is that Roku was/is sanctimonious about leading the "cut the cord" movement, a champion for the little guy. What a load of bologna. As bad as Charter cable was/is, they never acted like they were leading a revolution for the consumer (only to jam it to the consumer). In this regard, I think Roku is worthy of more contempt. Charter et. al. are pretty open about their disregard. Roku gaslights its customers.

And who is this [unimportant] clown? Some Roku n'er-do-well trying to quiet the growing angry mob?

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We've got bigger things to worry about. ("Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you...." -- Stealers Wheel).

[ku-sux]

@Visitor45763 wrote:
It appears Roku's streaming sticks aren't as bad as Roku TV...I've speculated this could be something like the difference between Apple & Microsoft.

Funny you should bring that up. One of the movies I was so graciously permitted to view Sunday was Jobs. I've always admired the guy's tenacity and his ability to understand design combined with ease of use. I bought my first computer in 1983. It was an Apple II+. I bought my first stock that year too - Microsoft. In 1985, I left Apple for an Epson QX-10, a very cool machine, unusual in that it ran CPM & DOS. Then I scored an Epson dealership that lasted about as long as Epson's foray into computers. Gates & IBM got together to steamroll CPM, which was really the kernel of all PCs. I got to know Gary Kildall (CPM creator) later when he lived in Austin. He told me the whole gruesome tale. But I digress.

The Roku Ultra is not a stick. But what I've noticed about Roku reminds me of Jobs because of the emphasis on marketing. I think that marketing success is based on the design and ease of use of Roku's products. The Ultra is a small footprint set top box with a remote. It's really very cool and supposedly supports any 4K TV. I've got it hooked up to an LG 4K TV. The remote is small and super easy to use. It feels great. My wi-fi signal from Spectrum is strong at all times.

When I watch antenna TV (which is a lot since I cut the cord and I get no FREE content on Roku), I just change the setting on the LG to Antenna. I think I've seen some option on a Roku menu somewhere about antenna TV but I'm not sure where. If I find it again, I'll have to check it out just to see if I can see more of what you're experiencing.

You posted a lot of info I need time to digest but from what you wrote, I think the tiered algorithm theory still holds up. However, the thing that seems to be different when comparing Roku to Apple's design and ease of use is that Roku is releasing new products at a much faster rate and may they may therefore be suffering from a lack of testing. They're probably trying to stay ahead of the big guys who might steamroll them. So far, they seem to be doing very well by getting major TV manufacturers onboard whereby they may be able to set the standards and avoid some kind of Beta/VHS showdown or something.

Have you tried to access FREE content from any other providers besides Roku? I'm talking about Filmrise, Plex, Tubi, Stirr or the many others that are available to me on this little box, but that I keep getting frustrated trying to watch. These are not antenna options. Don't you get these?

It looks like the moderator removed that troll from that clown. I'm just learning how this forum works.

[Harvini]

I have to say that for decades, as a lead or managing engineer, my theory was "Never attribute to malice that which can as easily be explained by incompetence".  After reading the descriptions of trouble and watching the ROKU response to their own failures, I must say that I am not attributing what is now going on to incompetence.  the one that finally hooked me was the description on another thread of a decrease in number of channels on OTA scanning.  In my own multi-set environment, I ran some tests myself with my own equipment.  I come away shaking my head.

[Visitor45763]

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@ku-sux wrote: However, the thing that seems to be different when comparing Roku to Apple's design and ease of use is that Roku is releasing new products at a much faster rate and may they may therefore be suffering from a lack of testing.

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This may be semantics, but I think it's more than that. Roku isn't releasing new products, it's other companies whom Roku licensed its software too (giddy about a fast track into consumer homes). It appears licensing was given no more thought than Pinky & The Brain's "tonight we conquer the world." No concern for how to ensure the software works on an ever-increasing set of hardware. It's like Roku wants it both ways. They want that advantage of reaching the consumer (on someone else's product), but not the support responsibility arising from all those products. They want the freedom of bazaar-style distribution (like Microsoft's software for all the "clone" computers). But, at the same time, expect it to work like the cathedral part of Roku's business (Roku's external streaming devices which Roku has sole control over). 

I don't believe this will turn out well for Roku. It's one thing to suffer growing pains. It's another to be overtly irresponsible and dismissive toward customer pain (just because you thought it was the easy way to get into homes).

Roku set the measure for itself too. All it's sanctimonious pouring fuel on the "cord cutters's" fire, as if Roku was here to help the poor, downtrodden to find freedom! Roku's just as bad (worse due to their self-aggrandizing savior image) as Comcast (the poster child of cord cutting). Reminds me of The Who's song  "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" (Won't Get Fooled Again).

Three years ago, CEO Wood proclaimed:

“My philosophy is that our goal is to build the operating system for TV, that is the long term goal, it is like Android or Windows, we want all TVs in the world to run our platform. If we do that, the stock will be worth a lot of money.” (MarketWatch, Nov. 14, 2017). 

That must have sounded nice & goosebumply back then. Today, Android is on TVs. Even Roku's first partner (TCL) is making an Android TV.

Why be "like" something when you can be something. Especially when Wood talked smack about Google:

“In the tech business, superior technology often wins and tech companies basically compete on how smart their employees are and the quality of their products... We’re much more focused. All we do is we come to work every day and we think about how to make TV better. Those companies, yes they’re great companies, but they come to work thinking about 'how can I sell a bunch of shoes, how can I be better at search, how can I sell more phones?' TV is on their list but it’s at the bottom of their list.” (Roku CEO, Anthony Wood. Vox, Sep 13, 2018)

Now that Android is on tv, and manufacturers are going that direction, and Wood squandered his opportunity (believing his savior sanctimony), I think Roku looks more like MagicJack than Apple.

MagicJack's inventor (Borislow) was quite self-promoting (Barnum talking). His infomercials made VoIP a common term in every home. There was a 2-3 year period he owned consumer VoIP. If you asked the average person about VoIP, they would say "yeah! Magicjack. I've seen that! Been thinking about getting one." Roku's bought that kind of popular mindshare. But, just like MJ, "now what?"

Like the title of the book about startup challenges (disruptive technology), Borisolw couldn't "cross the chasm." It was all looked undeniably great for awhile. And, he really did create something ingenious. And, had an ingenious way of capturing consumer mindshare. But, he couldn't take it to the next level (beyond toy or novelty stauts). Customers were taken for granted. Eventually, he focused more on patents. A decade later, nobody even thinks about MagicJack today.

Roku's got more going for it. It's accomplished more than MJ did. But, I still see the signs of obscurity on the horizon.

If TCL's Android tvs don't have all the flaky problems Rokus do, then Roku's coy dismissal (of recurring problems) as TCL's fault will be shown to be nothing more than self-serving fraud. (I think it's obvious already. If you were being tarred by a bad partner, wouldn't you professionally document the source of your shared customer's woes? Formal bug tracking, leading to a natural, honest, neutral? (Not the murky, never-concluded problems we see here? The very distant and unengaging, uncaring, pre-recorded support?).

Google is bringing a mature software development infrastructure to tv. (Not the Mad Hatter environment which Roku is famous for.). Change control, testing, bug tracking. My 7-year-old Nexus 4 still runs fine with some old version of Android I was left with. I'm not forced to disconnect my phone from cellular and wifi just to use it as a camera and MP3 player. Nobody at Android thinks it would be cool to break everyone's phones that way. My phone's still as functional as the day I bought it. 

How exactly is Roku going to compete with that?

My guess is that the one very (very) big thing Android will bring to their tv makers (as partners) is putting them in charge of pushing updates out (and choosing when to freeze a model from future updates). Putting tv makers in charge of contributing to patching updates; creating hardware with a mind toward futureproofing for updates. Not the weasily environment Roku has, where nobody knows what's not happening, or who's not doing it. Android will put the consumer more in the driver's seat with opting out of updates, and making it more apparent that a tv maker didn't test an update before pushing it to *their* customers.

I think that's precisely where Roku's business model has broken down. There's some kind of loosey-goosey relationship where TV makers "weren't supposed to make that tv that way" (and tv makers believed "Roku would test on everything it shipped on."). I bet nobody talked about this.

Now it's hitting the fan, and they're in denial about it.  That's why this forum looks like a canned bot ("I've passed your information along to the appropriate team [waste basket]. Have a nice day! If you'd like more help, please press 9 to repeat these options." Nobody's addressing the real problem. Maybe within Roku the environment is like Hans Christian Anderson "The Emperor's Clothes." (Maybe nobody can talk about the elephant in the room without retribution.).

When I first came to this forum, I thought it was just the underdog having growing pains. But, it looks much more malignant than that. More calculated. Deliberately harmful to customers. Uncaring. Like they're just looking for a buy-out deal now. Maybe they see what a trainwreck this is, and the days of being "Android on the TV" are over. 

I don't see how Roku will compete going forward. They already have severe problems (they're acting like don't exist). Now the OS [they said they wanted to be] is on TVs. An OS with much more maturity and proof of execution/leadership. Roku's response seems to be "no, this isn't happening. Please talk to your tv manufacturer." 

That's what looks a lot like MJ's final 3-4 years. There was an obvious denial. There were fan boyz with ego-investment as "insiders" (early-adopter relationship). There were momo investors using the market valuation as proof everything was fine (oblivious to fundamentals like I'm describing). It worked well until the very moment it didn't. It fell apart fast (when it finally happened).

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@ku-sux wrote: [Steve Jobs]. I've always admired the guy's tenacity and his ability to understand design combined with ease of use.

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If I recall, the book I mentioned (Crossing the Chasm) uses Apple as an example too. Jobs by himself could have never created Apple. It was Wozniak's vision of something nobody else could imagine. (The great inventor having food slid under the door to him.). He didn't care much about widespread adoption. He was pleased with his creation. If nobody else got it, that didn't matter (typical mentality of a genius).

Jobs saw the implication of Woz's vision. Jobs had the larger (20,000 foot) view Woz didn't care about. Jobs saw the a chasm to cross (from early-adopter, hobbiest, geeky niche to the broad market.). The bell curve of most consumers. 

I think that's where Roku is struggling. Being a genius alone (which Wood depicts himself being, and could be true. I don't know) isn't enough. Likewise, just being a double-talking marketer isn't enough either. Anyone can put lipstick on a pig. (Just like anyone can invent something nobody needs.). Crossing the chasm involves a rare combination of ingenuity in both areas. Marketing a pig is where we're at right now. Treating customers like expendable corpses (unthinking consumers forced fed & dumped out of tubs in the Matrix) isn't something that can be glossed over, as if doubling down on the happy-talk will win the day.

It might have worked before Android came to TV. I think Roku is facing an existential threat now. A few weeks ago I opined about how I should investigate shorting ROKU (symbol). I'm just a buy-and-hold kind of investor. I'm not aggressive at all. But, Roku looks so startlingly like MJ that I'm willing to put a little money at risk. I need to investigate how to buy a short position about 2 years out. I don't think it's a gamble. (I wouldn't mortgage my house. But, I wouldn't mind losing $500 with the potential of making $5000. The odds look very favorable to me.).

Roku may look like it has a leadership position. But, MJ looked that way too. Until the big guys -- who already had a large marketshare -- bought their own VoIP solutions (like FB and Whatsapp; Google bought Grand Central).

Roku has all the same markings. It won't be long until you can get your phone calls on your Android TV (while watching). A software platform without all the mickey-mouse untested, forced updates (you'll be able to opt out of updates entirely, if you wish). How's Roku going to compete with that?

I'm not in love with Google/Android. I'm not looking forward to phone calls on my tv. I wish Roku could be a competitor. But, everything I'm seeing shows very bad stuff (like sociopathy, predation, disregard for customers. The new Comcast of streaming. Not just a ship tossed in a storm.). There doesn't seem to be that spark of sincerity and good faith. Whenever politicians talk about breaking up Google's monopoly, I'm going to be sharing Roku's story. It's not hard to have a monopoly when your competition is as bad as Roku. It wasn't Roku's fault Comcast drove good people to Roku. It's not Google's fault Roku's doing the same thing. (Borislow's another example of why Google had an advantage with voice. In many ways he handed it to them.).

[Visitor45763]

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@Harvini wrote: my theory was "Never attribute to malice that which can as easily be explained by incompetence".  

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Exactly! I'm not naturally cynical. When I first posted here about Roku's breaking antenna tv, I thought something rare happened, and we were just hours (days) away from it being backed out. I assumed Roku really wanted to be the leader of cord cutters, etc.

I've increasingly come to see Roku as a malignant company. Worse than anything anyone cut the cord from. It's not the innocent victim of popularity and demand. I see systemic quisling, insincerity, disingenuousness, dismissiveness, disregard. 

I am not expecting anything positive to result from anything said on this forum. I think we are merely witnessing something. In a year or two we'll still be talking about this (like people talk about their green screens). Android will be on more tvs. I suspect there will be less problems on those Android TVs (from the same makers Roku blames). I think all of this will be clearer as time goes on. We're just witnessing something. Roku's not a company to help. They can't be helped. They're Bug #1 (and in denial about it).

[ku-sux]

Uh, nice rant but you didn't answer my questions. I'm not as jaded as you regarding Roku yet, but you won't find me cheerleading for "do no evil" Google either. Roku customer support is truly a joke, but that joke has been trending with all the online behemoths for years. So, they're just following suit. When people have had enough, maybe they'll start using other platforms. As long as these global corps get public acceptance of shoddy support, I don't see that changing anytime soon. I wish. Now all we seem to have is each other to confer with and refine our speculations.

Please just indulge me as I repeat my questions as I try to gain a better understanding:

Have you tried to access FREE content from any other providers besides Roku? I'm talking about Filmrise, Plex, Tubi, Stirr or the many others that are available to me on this little box, but that I keep getting frustrated trying to watch. These are not antenna options. Don't you get these?