Solving playback issues

[vodil]

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@yawitz wrote:

At the very least, the feature should be redesigned to make it clear that it does not (and cannot) change/convert the output, but merely selects possible source formats that are sent unmodified to the output.

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This is true, but ROKU does not alway get the full audio stream from the source.  E.g.  I can't get atmos on my ROKU from some sources that provide it through other apps.  ROKU should also make it clear that they can't (or won't pay to) provide it.

[lesmikesell]

Isn't it up to the individual services to provide their app and determine its capabilities?

[StreamerUser]

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@IDW wrote:

Totally agree

My Apple TV can do it, my Fire Stick can do it, why can’t a Roku extract DD from DD+ (which the DD+ spec was designed to simply allow).

ARC and SPDIF standards don’t allow DD+ so it essentially breaks many setups

i find this bizarre- this should be a basic expectation and makes the device not fit for purpose. 🙄

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If the Roku is a model 4640 Ultra it can (it has an optical port and the relevant DD+ decoder/license).

Otherwise, ARC and SPDIF do allow DD+ (it is a common persistent misconception that they dont):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital_Plus

"IEC 61937-3: defines how to transmit Dolby Digital (AC-3) and Dolby Digital Plus (E-AC-3) bitstreams via an IEC 60958/61937 (S/PDIF) interface. However, the S/PDIF interface has insufficient bandwidth to transport Dolby Digital Plus (E-AC-3) bitstreams at the 3.0Mbit/s datarate specified by HD DVD; lower datarates are possible"

This is what allows TV's with built-in apps to output DD+ encoded content (including Atmos) to receivers.

This is also what allows streaming devices (e.g. Rokus) to output DD+/Atmos encoded audio to/through TV's and on to ARC connected receivers/soundbars/etc (and receive it as DD+/Atmos).

Of course, for any of this to work properly, the TV has to either support DD+ decoding and/or passthrough via ARC (which most middle/higher end TVs from at least the last several years do) as well as a receiver/soundbar with DD+/Atmos ARC support.

[vodil]

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@lesmikesell wrote:

Isn't it up to the individual services to provide their app and determine its capabilities?

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Sure.  E.g. Netflix does not have all its content in UHD/Atmos, but even when it does a given middle-man (e.g. ROKU) may not take it all.  I believe they have to pay more for the higher quality streams; it uses more bandwidth.  Also, I don't get HD Amazon music on my ROKU, but I do on my Fire Cube.

[StreamerUser]

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@Heyitsrick wrote:

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@IDW wrote:

Totally agree

My Apple TV can do it, my Fire Stick can do it, why can’t a Roku extract DD from DD+ (which the DD+ spec was designed to simply allow).

ARC and SPDIF standards don’t allow DD+ so it essentially breaks many setups

i find this bizarre- this should be a basic expectation and makes the device not fit for purpose. 🙄

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I'm sure it's a matter of it being an additional licensing fee they would have to pass along. Roku is a "pass through" device. It's not decoding or transcoding (converting) surround formats in the box. It's merely passing whatever is sent to it to the far end device, based on what the far end device can accept. It's always been that way. 

The only deviation from that was an older Roku Ultra that had Optical Out. It had the ability to transcode DD+ to DD over optical. But otherwise, that's it.

That said, LowFrequency's TV actually supports DD+. It has the DD+ chipset, yet still has quirks about passing standard DD out of optical when it gets a native DD+ signal over HDMI. That's got to be frustrating.

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Unfortunately not all DD+ decoder implementations are equal (including several revisions of the MS12 codec licensing package often used in TVs/devices), not to mention firmware logic differences/limitations/bugs (that one often doesn't run into until after owning a product for a while and/or after firmware/software updates) - and the consumer is left with consequences of the significant details - usually missing functionality/dysfunctionality - and the need to find acceptable workarounds.

[StreamerUser]

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@Jo-20 wrote:

So with all of this discussion over the problem with DD+, why doesn’t RoKu address this issue or give an explanation.  I find that RoKu has no support for its users and seems to rely on its community of users.  Poor customer support.  

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Roku probably figures such (desired) usage scenarios are but a fraction of those overall, and decided not to cater to that market anymore (after a very limited foray).

While higher end users would certainly be willing to buy a streaming device with the latest revision MS12 licensed codec package (and the DD+/Atmos and other configurable output options etc that comes with it) and multiple optical/digital/etc output options, and/or otherwise pay a one-time "upgrade fee" for it,  Roku has clearly ceded this market niche to others.

Clearly their focus is on increasing adoption/market share for its TV partners (who can bear the cost and support of the functionality/licenses better) and mainstream players along with its ad services/revenues.

[StreamerUser]

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@yawitz wrote:

@Heyitsrick wrote (in part):

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...They've always been a "pass through" surround device, sending out what they get from the channel source, assuming the far end device can accept the format. But it doesn't decode anything...

At this point I guess I have to accept this fact, but I would argue that most customers wouldn't know about (or care) about this distinction, given how Roku's audio settings are presented. (I'd bet good money that if that detail was user-tested, most if not all users would fully expect the device to output in the format they selected in that particular setting.)

At the very least, the feature should be redesigned to make it clear that it does not (and cannot) change/convert the output, but merely selects possible source formats that are sent unmodified to the output.

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In fact it doesn't indicate possible source formats, but detected (or configured) destination formats (of the device it is connected to).  Apps can, at that point, if they want/are so coded, modify their available audio output accordingly (e.g. NetFlix will indicate 5.1 only if the Roku is configured for DD+ (either auto or manually), otherwise it doesnt indicate anything and outputs in stereo...).

Effectively its a destination device format capability indicator/configurator that apps can (if coded to) use to configure themselves/their audio output accordingly.

[yawitz]

I understand this in principle, but am not sure the settings UI is the appropriate place to make that point. I suppose that the streams a source provides are, or should be, displayed in a program's details page; if a source chooses to withhold certain streams, they are unlikely to advertise that, but I wouldn't shift the burden to Roku to shame them for that omission.

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@vodil wrote:

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@yawitz wrote:

At the very least, the feature should be redesigned to make it clear that it does not (and cannot) change/convert the output, but merely selects possible source formats that are sent unmodified to the output.

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This is true, but ROKU does not alway get the full audio stream from the source.  E.g.  I can't get atmos on my ROKU from some sources that provide it through other apps.  ROKU should also make it clear that they can't (or won't pay to) provide it.

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[yawitz]

OK, clarification taken. Still, the UI does a poor job of setting expectations for the selected setting. The customer can't be faulted for expecting the Roku to deliver the selected/supported format to the output (and most won't know about or understand the need for some kind of format conversion for that to work, which the Roku does not offer).

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@StreamerUser wrote:

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@yawitz wrote:

...

At the very least, the feature should be redesigned to make it clear that it does not (and cannot) change/convert the output, but merely selects possible source formats that are sent unmodified to the output.

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In fact it doesn't indicate possible source formats, but detected (or configured) destination formats (of the device it is connected to).  Apps can, at that point, if they want/are so coded, modify their available audio output accordingly (e.g. NetFlix will indicate 5.1 only if the Roku is configured for DD+ (either auto or manually), otherwise it doesnt indicate anything and outputs in stereo...).

Effectively its a destination device format capability indicator/configurator that apps can (if coded to) use to configure themselves/their audio output accordingly.

[lesmikesell]

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@StreamerUser wrote:

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"IEC 61937-3: defines how to transmit Dolby Digital (AC-3) and Dolby Digital Plus (E-AC-3) bitstreams via an IEC 60958/61937 (S/PDIF) interface. However, the S/PDIF interface has insufficient bandwidth to transport Dolby Digital Plus (E-AC-3) bitstreams at the 3.0Mbit/s datarate specified by HD DVD; lower datarates are possible"

You left out the next line that says this doesn't actually work:

"Much consumer gear, and even some professional gear, does not recognize Dolby Digital Plus as an encoded format, and will treat DD+ signals over a S/PDIF or similar interface, or stored in a .WAV file or similar container format, as though they were linear PCM data"

The problem isn't just the bandwidth, it is that there is no way to identify the format coming over SPDIF, or at least none that any equipment uses.  You have to connect via HDMI or HDMI arc, or the intermediate device (your TV) has to transcode to DD 5.1 like the spec says and that they should have to follow to have a DD+ license.