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C_I
Level 12

Re: Way too little too late - broken roles of roku


@Iona-D wrote:

Another way of being or just becoming "way too little or late" is........that's life.  I don't understand why people make something far more complicated or important than what it really is.unnecessary 

Can't get ________ (fill in your offending missing app)?  I could d not get Peacock TV on Roku for 2 MONTHS after it's debut on my former number 1 streaming device.   And I'm on a paying tier, not the freebie tier.  Solution?  Use Android & Chromecast.  The End of corporate control or possibly dropping down to a WhineFest.

Nothing in life is free or guaranteed.  ADAPT as your distant ancestors did in their time for more vital needs, not unnecessary to maintaining life (like eating, shelter) entertaiment.  Get real!


        Don't think Google isn't involved in these negotiations . There's just as much corporate control with Google as there is with any other company1

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fluke
Level 13

Re: Way too little too late - broken roles of roku


@atc98092 wrote:

@fluke wrote:

@atc98092 wrote:
The Shield is my go-to for playing my local media, as it has a Gigabit network connection and plays all my lossless audio without needing transcoding.

Transcoding between PCM and FLAC and back again has always been quick and easy for me.  Roku supports both.


Converting to FLAC doesn't provide Atmos or DTS:X height channels. You need the pure lossless audio track for that. 


I think you mean Dolby TrueHD with Atmos or DTS-HD Master Audio with DTS:X.

Each time I look into either TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, they both continue to be patented and closed specifications.  While it should technically possible for a MKV container to have all of the channels of Atmos or DTS:X, it is impossible for the open source community to legally produce a player to drive generate the audio frame for Dolby or DTS.  After what Sony pulled with SACD-DSD, I have refused to invest in another prioritary audio encoding format.  So while I would agree that Dolby and DTS have lossless spatial audio formats with results that can be interesting, I wouldn't ever use the word pure.

To me, pure lossless is reproducable. 

For example, take stereo FLACs and play them from amplifiers from two different manufactors and in two differently sized rooms.  If you use two professional microphones and compare the results with an oscilloscope, if both room have adequate noise damping they should produce the same results.

If you take an Atmos source and play it through an Atmos AVR, things get less pure.  I have yet to run into an AVR which drives 24 discrete speakers.  Instead, it seems like AVRs attempt to simulate having 24 speakers by injecting reverb and other tricks.  The results seem to differ depending on manufactor of the AVR and the size of the room.  So, I submit that it never stays pure lossless all the way through to what is played from the speakers.

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fluke
Level 13

Re: Way too little too late - broken roles of roku


@C_I wrote:

@Iona-D wrote:

Another way of being or just becoming "way too little or late" is........that's life.  I don't understand why people make something far more complicated or important than what it really is.unnecessary 

Can't get ________ (fill in your offending missing app)?  I could d not get Peacock TV on Roku for 2 MONTHS after it's debut on my former number 1 streaming device.   And I'm on a paying tier, not the freebie tier.  Solution?  Use Android & Chromecast.  The End of corporate control or possibly dropping down to a WhineFest.

Nothing in life is free or guaranteed.  ADAPT as your distant ancestors did in their time for more vital needs, not unnecessary to maintaining life (like eating, shelter) entertaiment.  Get real!


        Don't think Google isn't involved in these negotiations . There's just as much corporate control with Google as there is with any other company1


I think it is preferable to let Iona-D view the world through their tinted glasses.

The fact Apple TV+ streaming service is not available on the Google Play should be proof that they also aren't immune from corporate disputes.  As long as it is a streaming service that Iona-D has no interest in, Google is somehow without sin.

Just wait for Android TV to inevitably be yet another thing on the long list of #KilledByGoogle and the artifical heroic glow of Google will fade.  Smiley Tongue

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atc98092
Community Streaming Expert

Re: Way too little too late - broken roles of roku

Yes, "pure" was a poor choice of words. It's all processed in some manner or another. But since I rip all my discs with the audio tracks intact, I prefer to simply play them as is. Using several different players on the Shield, I can bitstream the same audio track that I would get if I placed the disc in a player. I don't want to take the time to convert them to FLAC, or any other additional processing. MakeMKV just gives me a clean copy of the disc, and I don't mess with it further. Sure, I could save some drive space if I'd convert them all to H.265 (for the ones that aren't in that already). But hard drives are cheap. Smiley Very Happy

Not really sure what you mean by "illegal" for the players on the Shield. Kodi, MrMC and VLC are all capable of bitstreaming Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio, including the height channels of Atmos and :X. Nothing illegal about any of those players, and I'm pretty sure there are others. 

Dan

Roku Community Streaming Expert

Help others find this answer and click "Accept as Solution."
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fluke
Level 13

Re: Way too little too late - broken roles of roku


@atc98092 wrote:

Yes, "pure" was a poor choice of words. It's all processed in some manner or another. But since I rip all my discs with the audio tracks intact, I prefer to simply play them as is. Using several different players on the Shield, I can bitstream the same audio track that I would get if I placed the disc in a player. I don't want to take the time to convert them to FLAC, or any other additional processing. MakeMKV just gives me a clean copy of the disc, and I don't mess with it further. Sure, I could save some drive space if I'd convert them all to H.265 (for the ones that aren't in that already). But hard drives are cheap. Smiley Very Happy

Not really sure what you mean by "illegal" for the players on the Shield. Kodi, MrMC and VLC are all capable of bitstreaming Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio, including the height channels of Atmos and :X. Nothing illegal about any of those players, and I'm pretty sure there are others. 


It is legal for open source to move the bits as-is.

If an open source player ever took a MKV with 24 FLAC channels and encoded it into TrueHD codec frames then it would be in violation of Dobly's patent.  It is neither an open specification or free to encode/decode.

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atc98092
Community Streaming Expert

Re: Way too little too late - broken roles of roku

Who said anything about the player encoding the stream into TrueHD or DTS MA? I've always only talked about bitstreaming the existing audio track. 

Dan

Roku Community Streaming Expert

Help others find this answer and click "Accept as Solution."
If you appreciate my answer, maybe give me a Kudo.

I am not a Roku employee, just another user.
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fluke
Level 13

Re: Way too little too late - broken roles of roku


@atc98092 wrote:

Who said anything about the player encoding the stream into TrueHD or DTS MA? I've always only talked about bitstreaming the existing audio track. 

I consider it to go against the purity of an audio standard the degree to which it can be technically reviewed.  Both Dolby and DTS obscure the access to the specifics of their encoding to only those that have paid to license the information.  Once a company has literilly bought into the infomation, I question their ability to be objective in reviewing it.

Audio industry is known for leveraging a placebo effect to sell something as better audio.  Some people swear by Bose as having an pleasing impact on sound.  I don't care for the texture and swarm of buzzing bees it adds to the bass.  I am not saying people shouldn't enjoy it if that is what they are looking for.  I just question the purity.  I also question the value of Beats headphones.  There are several reviews that show metal weights have been added that do not impact the resulting audio output.  These weight give the headphones a more "solid" and "professional" feel but I don't feel add value from an audiophile perspective.

There are things I like about Dolby Atmos.  It seems to do well when watching a movie when my attention is focused on the movie.  When my focus in on music, it does feel as pure a reproduction.  To some extent I feel like I am hearing reverb being injected.

I'm not say you or anyone else should dismiss Atmos or DTS:X.  People should still decide for themselves what they enjoy.  I am just saying for myself I would like more transparency into what exactly makes up the specification and possibly provide me more granularity on adjusting it to match what sounds pure to me.

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atc98092
Community Streaming Expert

Re: Way too little too late - broken roles of roku

I don't consider myself an audio or videophile. I have always though Bose was overrated. Never tried any Beats headphones. I don't like headphones in general, probably because of so many years with an earbud jammed in my ear controlling aircraft. 

Since my Atmos setup is less than optimal (only a pair of speakers pointed at the ceiling for reflected sound) I know it's really not adding much to my movie experience. But it is there subtly. I don't listen to music except as background fill, but I'm sure I'd be annoyed with reverb added to the upper speakers just to have something there. I've been a sound engineer for a number of different churches over the last 25 years or so, and do tend to become overly critical of a less than adequate mix. Smiley Very Happy It's painful listening to some of the online streaming services these days. 

I am in complete agreement that people should use what they enjoy. For me, Roku devices offer a good compromise between the best possible audio and a simple to use interface and player. I'm finding the HBO Max channel on the Roku is working better than the one on my Shield. HBO had plenty of time to ensure their channel was ready on the Roku. Perhaps they rushed the Android TV app too quickly. Same with CBS All Access. I can get 5.1 audio with a Roku, but only stereo with the Shield. And I understand there are other providers with the same issue under Android. 

As I've said before, there is no perfect streaming player at this time. Depending on ones needs, the Roku is actually better than the Shield. But in other ways, the Shield is the clear winner. 

Dan

Roku Community Streaming Expert

Help others find this answer and click "Accept as Solution."
If you appreciate my answer, maybe give me a Kudo.

I am not a Roku employee, just another user.
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MatthewK
Level 7

Re: Way too little too late - broken roles of roku

Roku Express disappoints. We have such low volume the device is useless. No help or support to solve problem. My first and last foray into Roku product line.

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Iona-D
Level 13

Re: Way too little too late - broken roles of roku


@fluke wrote:

@C_I wrote:

@Iona-D wrote:

Another way of being or just becoming "way too little or late" is........that's life.  I don't understand why people make something far more complicated or important than what it really is.unnecessary 

Can't get ________ (fill in your offending missing app)?  I could d not get Peacock TV on Roku for 2 MONTHS after it's debut on my former number 1 streaming device.   And I'm on a paying tier, not the freebie tier.  Solution?  Use Android & Chromecast.  The End of corporate control or possibly dropping down to a WhineFest.

Nothing in life is free or guaranteed.  ADAPT as your distant ancestors did in their time for more vital needs, not unnecessary to maintaining life (like eating, shelter) entertaiment.  Get real!


        Don't think Google isn't involved in these negotiations . There's just as much corporate control with Google as there is with any other company1


I think it is preferable to let Iona-D view the world through their tinted glasses.

The fact Apple TV+ streaming service is not available on the Google Play should be proof that they also aren't immune from corporate disputes.  As long as it is a streaming service that Iona-D has no interest in, Google is somehow without sin.

Just wait for Android TV to inevitably be yet another thing on the long list of #KilledByGoogle and the artifical heroic glow of Google will fade.  Smiley Tongue


I really wish I have that luxury of having tinted glasses in the first place!  My bank account keeps me in reality very well, thank you very much.  Complaints about not having one or the other app is simply becoming a bit well, tiring when you are faced with mounting bills about the foundation of streaming ability: your own ISP.  

I managed to partially fix my own problems with my ISP as detailed here:  https://community.roku.com/t5/Community-Discussions/Apps-Availability-Are-Not-The-True-Issue-It-s-Ba...

Not ideal, but still workable for now.  The same goes for streaming Peacock TV when it debuted.  I simply had the opportunity to stream it on an old Gen 2  Chromecast I had already owned WAY BEFORE I got involved with Roku and I simply done so.  THEN I added the other newer devices as they became available.  When Roku felt threatened (and about to lose all their NBC freebie apps), they added Peacock TV when they were good and ready to do so.  Now I have the choice to adjust my own online usage and I am doing so right this minute.  So what if I like to have lots of choices of devices to use when the mood hits me.  Including a brand new DVD player and nice sewing machines whenever I want to use them.  These older devices are not dependent on byte usage or ISPs.  Just communication in the 21st century world does via the ISP and the more complex electronic devices than what I like to do for years before these things even existed.

I, along with other people who stream or not, is also presently living in a world that will not pity and will even kill off the deniers of our present system and  people who walk around with rose colored glasses.  Action speaks louder than words.  I cannot afford to be this person you think I am.  I have other problems right now.

So, Roku is not broken.  It's the dependence or too much emphasis on Streaming ever more expensive apps, app placement negotiation power plays, and ISPs behind the times, that is the underlying reason why Roku shifted it's interest from it's  pwn customers and even remaining staff right now. 

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